26 replies to this topic

[everlearners]

I just spent an hour or so looking for the "Intro Unit" section in my Pagelines install, as described in the documentation wiki at

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. I finally figured out that within Pagelines it is called the "Hero Unit" instead. The documentation wiki does not contain that term.

Pagelines 2.2 was released two months ago today. The documentation wiki is inaccurate and incomplete. You are charging premium fees for a premium product. I expect that to include premium documentation as well. My 30-day trial is coming to an end soon. Please give me a timeline on when the documentation will be updated so I can decide whether I should request a refund or not.

[Danny]

Hi, We apologise for our outdated documentation. Our Wiki is constantly being updated and I have informed our docs team regarding the error with the Hero section docs page.

[everlearners]

Danny, you make your documentation process sound very haphazard. I find your answer to be unsatisfactory, because you cannot tell me when the documentation will be complete. That makes me feel like I have invested in the wrong framework.

[Rob]

Hi Everlearners, I am quite sorry you feel that way and agree that our documentation is lacking. I won't attempt to make excuses, but explain that our documentation is a fluid document and not a static one. Products are released often with insufficient documentation and there's simply no excuse for it. I cannot give you a defined date and neither could Danny, as this request has to go to higher authority than either of us. It's not that we're avoiding it, but as a rapidly growing company, some things go amiss. We humbly apologize. Nonetheless, we do try to answer direct questions about any of our products here, in Live Chat (for Plus members) and via other means whenever someone asks. I must say, it's rare that people even read the documentation or take the time to peruse it and perhaps that influenced the lack of effort. We'll certainly address it as fast as possible. Currently I'm dashing off a note to our developers on this and deeply appreciate your patience.

[everlearners]

rangelone, I appreciate your candid response. Perhaps I am different than other customers, but I do rely on documentation when I am developing with a new product. With good documentation, I am able to find an answer quickly rather than wait for a forum reply (though to your credit, you are very responsive in the forums). The shortcomings in your documentation go far beyond a simple error in the naming of one of the sections (still not corrected in the time since you reported it). There are many placeholder images, links that go nowhere, and completely empty pages. I understand that documentation is often a low priority, and is treated as an ongoing process, but when there are other frameworks that are completely free that also have good, usable documentation, it makes it hard to justify the premium price you are charging, even with a product that is as good as yours. I feel like I've given your product a fair shot. It may be a great product for many other users, but the poor documentation is a deal-breaker for me. I'll keep an eye on the progress of your product and your documentation, and would be willing to come back and give it another try at some point in the future if I see things have improved. Many thanks

[catrina]

No problem. We'll be improving the documentation, but there has been no set time that I've heard.

[kristjan72]

I find it interesting that searching the Pagelines Wiki for "Hero Unit" still returns no results, a more than six weeks after everlearners pointed the omission out.

Seems to me that if the documentation was up to par, it would save you guys a lot of time in the forums. On all your profiles it says something to the effect of: "Read the documentation before posting". I agree with this. It is simple forum etiquette.

However after searching the documentation a few times and getting lost and getting bad or incomplete information (and sometimes plain wrong info) what happens is that for my next question I will not even turn to the documentation, but come straight here, to the forums, thus increasing your workload...

In the long run, a little time invested in the how-to documentation will result in time saved...

and this:

I must say, it's rare that people even read the documentation or take the time to peruse it and perhaps that influenced the lack of effort.

is just a really poor excuse, not to mention rude. The lack of good documentation educates us, the customer, not to rely on it. With good documentation it is easy to educate forum users with a simple RTFM response...

Sorry if this turned into a bit of a rant, but it is very frustrating to lots of users. I guess the doc team is not the same as the forum team, so their not directly feeling the effects of the bad wiki and docs, you guys are!

[Simon_P]

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The docs are being updated and they are a huge improvement over the wiki. Shouldn't be too long now.

[kristjan72]

Excellent news! Look forward to that! I'm guessing asking for an ETA is pushing it

[Simon_P]

Getting a reply on a sunday was pushing it lol. It should be soon, thats all

[kristjan72]

touché!

[Rob]

The topic was marked as resolved.

[WebWerx]

Have the docs been updated yet to include the Hero Unit? Seems not:

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?

[randybrown]

I hate for my first post to this forum to harp on the negative (not my nature), but this problem of insufficient and outdated documentation extends beyond the docs.

I just purchased PageLines Plus over the weekend and my first attempt to receive some tutorials on how to use it came in the form of your tutorial videos that are posted on YouTube. I usually learn the best when I can watch someone doing what I need to do, rather than read some lengthy narrative about it from an instruction book.

But it appears that your tutorial videos were made using some earlier version of PageLines, because there's nothing in the videos that even remotely resembles the menu structure of the current version of PageLines. In other words, the tutorial videos are utterly useless. They only serve to confuse and frustrate. For example, in the video entitled PLET-1.2: How to Get Started with PageLines, not 30 seconds into the video it shows the basic menu structure of the dashboard in PageLines. On the video, the PageLines dashboard menu contains the options "Settings," "Meta," "Templates," "Store," and "Account." Yet in my installation of PageLines, only "Store" is a common menu item. In my installation, the menu selections are "Dashboard," "Site Options," "Page Options," "Drag & Drop," and "Store." So I'm not even a half-minute into the video and already the instructions don't match up with what I'm looking at. There is nothing that undermines confidence quicker than to have the instructions not match what is actually present in the software. TALK ABOUT CONFUSING!!! Then of course the selections from within each of the menu options are also completely different. I hate to say it, but your tutorial videos are about as useful in training me on PageLines as they would be if they explained how to take apart an automobile engine. It's almost as if they were designed for something altogether different than training people to use PageLines. And yet this particular video was updated just 9 months ago. It's not like they're five years old.

Am I frustrated? Yes. Am I confused and feeling totally lost? Absolutely. Am I perplexed over how a company that touts itself as a premiere framework builder could leave its customers completely in the dark about how to use their product? You bet your ass I am.

But more importantly, I'm in a real quandary. How am I supposed to learn how to use this framework if the only documentation you offer is wrong and the tutorial videos you have online is wrong? Am I supposed to just meditate on it or pray for an epiphany? Shall I wait for divine guidance? Or am I just out the $97 with little more than your best wishes that I find my way on my own?

I don't even know where to start.

[WebWerx]

Hey Randy: I feel your pain. This has been a PageLines issue since I began using the platform. That being said, I find that "doing" = "learning". If you understand Wordpress, things are even easier. Once you get the hang of it, things fall into place quite well.

I still think Mr. Powers and company should step back a bit an focus on creating proper online educational materials versus constantly updating the platform. I bet these forums would be less busy if the basics had been covered up front.

I will dismount from my SoapBox.

[Rob]

Randy, like WebWerx, who isn't a moderator, I too feel your pain.

We are working feverishly to improve our documentation. This product has grown so much and so rapidly that things change before the documentation, and particularly the videos. I do apologize, on behalf of the PageLines team for this. When that video was made, the Dashboard and PageLines options were as you saw them in the video. Over the fullness of time, which in online terms means a minute or two ago, things changed and we found ourselves with different options in the Dashboard.

I know it's confusing and frustrating for our clients, but equally, if not more so to our moderators. Time's simply not on our side.

Anyway, I know that the new docs are soon to be released and assure you that we will continue working to improve them.

[WebWerx]

Hey Rob: How about you cook up some new docs?

[randybrown]

Here's a suggestion for you guys. All your YouTube videos were made with the old interface. Rather than having to update ALL the videos (I know what a hassle that can be, I do video production), how 'bout you guys produce ONE video that provides some sort of translation so we newbies to PageLines can at least know where things moved from/to. We have absolutely no point of reference whatsoever. And even the online docs are wrong. So there's NOTHING to help us get started that isn't wrong/misleading/confusing.

Just produce ONE video and ONE document to sort of provide a translation from the old interface to the new one, explaining where things WERE and where they moved to.

Heck, I don't even know in which version it was that things moved. There's NOTHING to give me a clue.

[randybrown]

WebWerks said:

I still think Mr. Powers and company should step back a bit an focus on creating proper online educational materials versus constantly updating the platform. I bet these forums would be less busy if the basics had been covered up front.

I've spent my whole career (since I was 16, way back in 1969) in broadcast media. And if there's one thing I've learned through the years, it's that if you get out ahead of your audience, you will leave them behind.

In the age of technology, it remains baffling to me that tech companies don't grasp the importance of communication and education in a way that conveys the info to a LAY PERSON, not merely another internet/technology geek. I've read so many instructional books that seem written by people who assume WAYYYYYYY too much prior knowledge on the part of the reader. THIS JUST IN: If I knew what you know, I wouldn't have to read the freakin' instructions!!!

I'm not saying you have to dumb it down (well, maybe I am). But what I am saying is, if you want to EXPAND your audience, you've got to communicate not just to the already knowledgeable, but to those who don't yet know, but want to learn. Remember, there was a time when you didn't know this stuff, either. Someone had to help you along. If they hadn't, you'd be working the checkout register at WalMart. The problem I've observed with most tech people is that while they're quite good interacting with computers, their people skills are next to non-existent. It's no wonder they're not very good at communicating or educating.

But I'm persistent and determined. I'll figure this out eventually. I know just enough about WordPress already to be barely competent at an entry level -- as long as nothing ever goes wrong. If I have to write code or do something that requires that code be inserted, I will ask enough dumb questions until I get the answer I need. But my frustration-o-meter might get pegged in the process. And at my age, my blood pressure can only take so much of that.

[Danny]

Hi,

I'm working on the new docs and thought I would share a sneak peak with you. Please ignore any spelling mistakes etc.., as these pages have yet to be proof read.

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